20 replies to this topic

[Alfa1]

I find the IP.Nexus product very interesting. On your feature list page it states that the available payment gateways are paypal, authorize.net and 2checkout. Paypal is known to run with the money, so while its a popular payment method its not reliable enough for use as the main payment gateway for my business.
authorize.net and 2checkout are American companies which do not cater to international clients.

Most Europeans do not use credit cards, and online banking is by far the most used payment method. The payment gateways you offer do not accept online banking methods.

Are you planning to expand the payment gatewateways integrated with IP.Nexus?

I'd like to suggest Ogone, as they are one of the most used PSP and offer an API and 200 payment methods. Other suggestions: moneybookers, ideal, direct-e-banking, epagado, google checkout, alertpay,

Without viable options for payment gateways and PSPs, its hard to use IP.Nexus. So I hope that you plan on expanding that.

[.Ian]

Hi,

Not sure about 'most Europeans do not use credit cards' - my experience is the opposite.

However when I use PayPal I can also pay directly from my bank account via a debit card, so this might be a good alternative for you.

You can of course also accept manual payment methods - BACS, Cheque, Postal Orders, Cash etc.

[Alfa1]

.Ian, on 14 October 2011 - 09:36 AM, said:

Not sure about 'most Europeans do not use credit cards' - my experience is the opposite.

Only 25% of Europeans have a credit card.

.Ian, on 14 October 2011 - 09:36 AM, said:

However when I use PayPal I can also pay directly from my bank account via a debit card, so this might be a good alternative for you.

Forcing customers to get a paypal account is not a good alternative. If a store does not have the payment options that a customer has, then the customer will rapidly move on to another store that does.
Its worth noting that the internet is littered with stories from people that had their paypal account seized for no good reason. Paypal is not a reliable basis to build business upon.

.Ian, on 14 October 2011 - 09:36 AM, said:

You can of course also accept manual payment methods - BACS, Cheque, Postal Orders, Cash etc.

While those methods are very good to have as alternative options, the bulk of customers want to have instant payments, so that they can swiftly receive products.Any business that wants to be competitive needs to accept instant payments.

[.Ian]

Not sure where you get your figure of 25%.

[Alexander V]

http://blog.nielsen....creditcards.jpg



50%, still quite little.


He's got some valid points really, shops are supposed to adapt to customers not the other way around.

[stoo2000]

Alexander V, on 14 October 2011 - 01:18 PM, said:

http://blog.nielsen....creditcards.jpg



50%, still quite little.


He's got some valid points really, shops are supposed to adapt to customers not the other way around.

That graph doesn't show the right answer of how much of the population use them, it's also nearly two years out of date.

[Alexander V]

stoo2000, on 14 October 2011 - 01:32 PM, said:

That graph doesn't show the right answer of how much of the population use them, it's also nearly two years out of date.

It also only includes the EU, the richest part of Europe most likely to be using credit cards. So let's call it even, okay?


All in all IP.Nexus is a great system, and as far as I know adding more gateways is on the list.

[.Ian]

Alexander V, on 14 October 2011 - 01:47 PM, said:

It also only includes the EU, the richest part of Europe most likely to be using credit cards. So let's call it even, okay?

Which had a 70% usage of credit cards (at least) in 2009/10.

[Alexander V]

.Ian, on 14 October 2011 - 02:01 PM, said:

Which had a 70% usage of credit cards (at least) in 2009/10.

....Any links on that? Because I have been using my Doctorate in Google Search *cough cough* (XD) to look around for any and all numbers and EU as a whole usually ends up around 30 to 60%

It's just now taking off here, but still not as successfull as the staggering US market with over 70% adoption and 33% preference of credit cards.

In the EU it is still dramatically less popular, England being an exception.

[Alfa1]

I'm trying to find the reference again, as I researched the matter 9 months ago. The exact % is not the most important argument. The main point is that online banking is adopted by a much larger amount of people in Europe.

Here is a reference: https://www.payment-...ntarea/benefits

Quote

16 million private credit card owners as compared to 40 million online banking account in Germany alone

Mind that Germany's adult population is around 44 million. So thats 36% for credit cards and 90% for online banking.

It's important to note that in the EU, credit cards are generally considered to be high risk to fraud. Especially for use on the internet. For this reason, many people who have a credit card, will not use it on the internet.

[Alfa1]

Interesting enough, this post from a Belgian member, clearly portrays why the current payment methods do not work for European customers:
http://community.inv...ic/349168-rant/

[Martin A.]

Alexander V, on 14 October 2011 - 01:47 PM, said:

It also only includes the EU, the richest part of Europe most likely to be using credit cards. So let's call it even, okay?

Norway and Switzerland are the richest countries in the Europe (per capita), and we're not part of the EU

Alfa1, on 14 October 2011 - 07:41 PM, said:

I'm trying to find the reference again, as I researched the matter 9 months ago. The exact % is not the most important argument. The main point is that online banking is adopted by a much larger amount of people in Europe.

Here is a reference: https://www.payment-...ntarea/benefits
Mind that Germany's adult population is around 44 million. So thats 36% for credit cards and 90% for online banking.

It's important to note that in the EU, credit cards are generally considered to be high risk to fraud. Especially for use on the internet. For this reason, many people who have a credit card, will not use it on the internet.

Remember that VISA is treated as a credit card too. While most of the card issued are debit cards, you usually have to tick off for "credit card" when you're using it online. When you ask people if they use credit cards, I would think most of them think of cards like MasterCard, Diners or AmEx and would immediately say "No way, I don't spend money I don't have, so no".

And of course you have an online banking account, most of us who live in the modern world do, but they usually have some sort of card(s) tied to those accounts. A VISA, perhaps?


None of this can be backed up with sources as far as I know. These are all just my thoughts, but there's no way only 25% of the population in Europe have a card that can be used on online services such as PayPal.

[Alfa1]

Debit cards in the EU are not from VISA or Mastercard. Mostly Maestro and others. There is really no need for credit cards, unless you need to rent a car, buy from an American website or for very specific occasions.

Its also noteworthy that the EU is working on unifying all online banking systems into one European system. The EU is part of the reason why banks have been pushing online banking payments so much. And an important reason for that, is that there was a need for a safer alternative to credit cards.

If you count the full population in Germany then thats a 20% of the population that have a credit card.
It surely is possible to use slow bank transfer or credit card payment with paypal, but paypal is very unreliable. Customers know that. Why would someone put his money in the hands of a problematic party like paypal, while you can use a state backed bank and have better functionality & service?

[Alexander V]

Martin A, on 14 October 2011 - 08:20 PM, said:

Norway and Switzerland are the richest countries in the Europe (per capita), and we're not part of the EU


Remember that VISA is treated as a credit card too. While most of the card issued are debit cards, you usually have to tick off for "credit card" when you're using it online. When you ask people if they use credit cards, I would think most of them think of cards like MasterCard, Diners or AmEx and would immediately say "No way, I don't spend money I don't have, so no".

And of course you have an online banking account, most of us who live in the modern world do, but they usually have some sort of card(s) tied to those accounts. A VISA, perhaps?


None of this can be backed up with sources as far as I know. These are all just my thoughts, but there's no way only 25% of the population in Europe have a card that can be used on online services such as PayPal.

Also two of the smallest ones (and I dare argue Switzerland wasn't the richest was it? I do think my own country came before it ), considering the fact Zwitserland has about 8 million people, Norway about 5 million people, Europe 857 million people and the European Union and the EU 500 million people, i'd say that's not a very meaningful argument mate. Also in my country people are pretty educated in the fact VISA is a card...


Though I myself got confused when I saw a "Maestro" logo for credit card whilst my debit card has it too..

Alfa1, on 14 October 2011 - 11:21 PM, said:

Debit cards in the EU are not from VISA or Mastercard. Mostly Maestro and others. There is really no need for credit cards, unless you need to rent a car, buy from an American website or for very specific occasions.

Its also noteworthy that the EU is working on unifying all online banking systems into one European system. The EU is part of the reason why banks have been pushing online banking payments so much. And an important reason for that, is that there was a need for a safer alternative to credit cards.

If you count the full population in Germany then thats a 20% of the population that have a credit card.
It surely is possible to use slow bank transfer or credit card payment with paypal, but paypal is very unreliable. Customers know that. Why would someone put his money in the hands of a problematic party like paypal, while you can use a state backed bank and have better functionality & service?

Arr, in holland we use IDeal, which is secure, government backed and powered directly by all major and minor dutch banks. It basically means the entire dutch population uses the same online payment system that is incredibly secure, doesn't put you at risk and is actually faster then PayPal.

Suck on that, eBay!

[.Ian]

Alfa1, on 14 October 2011 - 11:21 PM, said:

Debit cards in the EU are not from VISA or Mastercard. Mostly Maestro and others. There is really no need for credit cards, unless you need to rent a car, buy from an American website or for very specific occasions.

Its also noteworthy that the EU is working on unifying all online banking systems into one European system. The EU is part of the reason why banks have been pushing online banking payments so much. And an important reason for that, is that there was a need for a safer alternative to credit cards.

If you count the full population in Germany then thats a 20% of the population that have a credit card.
It surely is possible to use slow bank transfer or credit card payment with paypal, but paypal is very unreliable. Customers know that. Why would someone put his money in the hands of a problematic party like paypal, while you can use a state backed bank and have better functionality & service?

What part of Europe are you from?

Visa have both debit and credit cards used widely in Europe. It is the only form of payment at the Olympic Games for example.

Maestro (debit) is owned by Mastercard (credit) and both are widely used in Europe.

I solely use credit cards in Europe and cannot remember the last time that I could not use a credit card either for shopping or anything else.

The only time I tend to use cash is for small purchases or in a bar - but more often I could use my card there as well if I wanted to.

Many Europeans will now use cards for purchases as small as 1 Euro or the equivalent currency. With contactless cards now appearing this will become even more common.

We tend to use WorldPay who are very large and offer merchant services.  Personally Worldpay would be a great addition.  But Moneybookers would also be good for those who use them.

The one country that does seem to be behind with credit cards in Belgium as their banks seem reluctant for some reason, but elsewhere in Europe there never seems any issues.  Belgium seems to prefer Mastercard's Maestro.  But this reluctance seems to be limited to the one country. But even here I cannot recall any issues at hotels, attractions, shopping etc.

I feel that you simply have an objection to PayPal, which do offer alternatives to using a credit card, but the issue here is that initially IPS have to go for a system that is popular and widely used throughout the world. Also bear in mind that a lot of what they put into Nexus they use themselves, so as they use PayPal for sales of IPB it would make sense for that to be an initial processing method.

Hopefully we will see alternatives - but I suspect it would be a small minority who would ever use these other methods choosing to stick with PayPal.

[Alfa1]

I'm from the Netherlands, and have investigated the matter of payment options in the EU as I needed to do so before deciding on some heavy e-commerce investments.

While many vendors indeed accept credit card payments, this does not mean that credit cards are popular. Each country has a few national payment terminal systems, which accepts credit cards as well. Credit cards are widely accepted, but far less widely used. This makes sense as credit cards are the main payment method for many non-EU countries and a few EU countries. Banksys (Belgium) supports credit card payments just fine.

I am aware that maestro is owned by master card, but there is a very large difference between the debit and the credit card. The debit cards which use the maestro system for ATM are not maestro cards. They are cards from EU banks who make use of the Maestro system. For example: my rabobank, ING bank and SNS bank debit cards have a maestro logo on them, but these are cards from my banks.

I think Worldpay would be a very nice addition, even though I can not find a list of payment options that they give access to. I've seen their gateways and IIR they are into mobile payments as well.

I use paypal on my big board, to collect donations. Although its not a reliable platform, its a popular payment method. Unfortunately it does not offer any other payment options than credit cards and paypal account. It does allow people to fund their paypal account with a bank transfer. But that takes a week.
I have had to hire lawyer in the past, because paypal arbitrarily freezes accounts. Thats an important part of how they make money. Once an account is frozen, it can take major effort to unfreeze it, because paypals system is designed to drive people into despair and give up on their money.

The fact that most webshops on the net do not solely rely on paypal, says enough about the demand for other payment options.

[Cyrem]

Alfa1, on 14 October 2011 - 09:31 AM, said:

Paypal is known to run with the money

You could apply this to any payment processor.

[Mark]

To answer the original question: we will continue to assess demand for additional gateways and add more as necessary. Since Nexus' original release (which had 3: Authorize.Net, PayPal Website Payments Standard and Manual) we have added 2 more (2CheckOut and PayPal Website Payments Pro).


There are a few things I feel may be worth pointing out after reading through this discussion:

• 2CheckOut (which is supported by IP.Nexus) is not US only.
  
• Both 2CheckOut and PayPal are not limited to credit cards only - debit cards (Visa Debit, Visa Electron, Maestro, etc.) and American Express charge cards are also accepted by both gateways.
  
• I'm not sure if this differs by your location, but here in the UK, PayPal bank transfers are instant, and do not take "a week" - this may be something worth contacting PayPal about if you're having issues.
  
• IP.Nexus supports manual payments such as by cheque or bank transfer.

If you have any questions about Nexus capabilities, please contact us on sales@invisionpower.com. But I don't think the "is PayPal evil" debate is really going anywhere (even though I know it's a debate people love to have ).

[Alfa1]

Mark, on 16 October 2011 - 05:47 AM, said:

2CheckOut (which is supported by IP.Nexus) is not US only.

Thanks. I missed that.

Mark, on 16 October 2011 - 05:47 AM, said:

Both 2CheckOut and PayPal are not limited to credit cards only - debit cards (Visa Debit, Visa Electron, Maestro, etc.) and American Express charge cards are also accepted by both gateways.

Those debit cards are not very useful. In 14 years of e-commerce I have never found the need for those. it would have been very useful if all cards with a maestro logo would work.

Mark, on 16 October 2011 - 05:47 AM, said:

I'm not sure if this differs by your location, but here in the UK, PayPal bank transfers are instant, and do not take "a week" - this may be something worth contacting PayPal about if you're having issues.

I think that differs on location. Paypal states it takes up to 6 days.

Mark, on 16 October 2011 - 05:47 AM, said:

IP.Nexus supports manual payments such as by cheque or bank transfer.

This is very useful for donations.

Mark, on 16 October 2011 - 05:47 AM, said:

I don't think the "is PayPal evil" debate is really going anywhere (even though I know it's a debate people love to have ).

Paypal is very useful, because its popular, so its a needed payment option. But like many others I know, I have had very unpleasant experiences with them and my lawyers surely agree that paypal is evil.

[.Ian]

Alfa1, on 16 October 2011 - 08:05 AM, said:

Those debit cards are not very useful. In 14 years of e-commerce I have never found the need for those. it would have been very useful if all cards with a maestro logo would work.

Not sure about the Netherlands, but here we use debit cards to take money directly from our bank accounts.

Often credit cards may be charged at 2 or 3%, but debit cards are often free or say 50p.