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Allow albums within albums! here is the reason


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#1 Noni

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Posted 17 July 2012 - 02:47 AM

In the latest blog entry regarding Gallery 5.0 changes you are mentioning that albums within other albums will not be allowed. (more specifically, subalbums won't exist).

In my community there are members traveling for long distances with their motorcycle and for better organizing they are adding an album for example "My trip around the world and they structure their pictures in subalbums per countries they visited.

Now this feature is a must have for me.. and you are taking it out in the next release. Please, consider leaving it as it is!

#2 Noni

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Posted 17 July 2012 - 03:09 AM

If my opinion above wasn't convincing enough, take it like this:

I have been traveling for some time and i have 500 pictures to upload from my trip.
I will never ever ever rename the pictures or add descriptions to them: where they were taken, in what circumstances.. etc. I simply want to make them visible to other members and also let them understand something from them without requiring a consistent effort from me (renaming pictures, adding descriptions..etc)

So, i choose to create subalbums in my main trip album with pictures from countries visited, or based on activities.. or whatever other structuring i find useful
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#3 Heyhoe

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Posted 17 July 2012 - 03:43 AM

If i understand correctly, this is how IPS will structure the Gallery.

Category - Animals --------------------> Album - Dogs
Album - Cats
Album - Rabbits

Category - Sports ----------------------> Album - Soccer
Album - Basketball
Album - Basketball 2

ETC.

I can see how this will effect many "organised" communities. They will end up with each category full of albums that have a broad range of events/subjects.

I suppose the only way to effect this would be to create more specific categories which means tons of categories! I Actually think the users will be more bothered about having an easy to use, intuitive Gallery than scaleability. But again, each community is different! It's a hard one.

My own personal gallery would work perfect with the new structure, but I think this will drive many users to another software. (just look at the amount of negative feedback already.)

Paul.

#4 joelle

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Posted 17 July 2012 - 03:46 AM

For my site it is also very inconvenient that subalbums are being removed. Subalbums are being heavily used for categorising horses. But we are sometimes getting error messages and the problems associated with the erros have never been really solved. In case that our complex subalbum structure is causing the ongoing issues, I would probably take the risk of loosing the subalbum feature. But my users would definitely not like it that subalbums are going to be removed. They don't like any change. ^^

#5 Noni

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Posted 17 July 2012 - 05:26 AM

If i understand correctly, this is how IPS will structure the Gallery.

Category - Animals --------------------> Album - Dogs
Album - Cats
Album - Rabbits

Category - Sports ----------------------> Album - Soccer
Album - Basketball
Album - Basketball 2

ETC.

I can see how this will effect many "organised" communities. They will end up with each category full of albums that have a broad range of events/subjects.

I suppose the only way to effect this would be to create more specific categories which means tons of categories! I Actually think the users will be more bothered about having an easy to use, intuitive Gallery than scaleability. But again, each community is different! It's a hard one.

My own personal gallery would work perfect with the new structure, but I think this will drive many users to another software. (just look at the amount of negative feedback already.)

Paul.


it's even easier than you think.. let me make it more clear..

i'll take one example from my gallery.

I have created this album in which i have added subalbums based on days and places. Pictures have been added only in the subalbums yet i still get to see in the middle of the page the latest pictures. It would be even better if there was a pagination allowing me to browse through all pictures (from all subalbums) in the main page - this is actually another suggestion/improvement for the new gallery.

At the right, you can see the subalbums. Take the subalbums as filters. If any user wants to see specific pictures from a specific area, he can click the coresponding subalbum. If he wants to see again all pictures, he just goes back, and in the main page he could just browse using the pagination.

So, having this functionality would satisfy both your community and mine also.


For my site it is also very inconvenient that subalbums are being removed. Subalbums are being heavily used for categorising horses. But we are sometimes getting error messages and the problems associated with the erros have never been really solved. In case that our complex subalbum structure is causing the ongoing issues, I would probably take the risk of loosing the subalbum feature. But my users would definitely not like it that subalbums are going to be removed. They don't like any change. ^^


I know about these errors... i;ve had them, and somehow managed to fix them one by one..

#6 Cyrem

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Posted 17 July 2012 - 05:36 AM

A major feature of an image gallery is that users can organise their photo's how they want, however IPS seem to be trying to make it more "forum" structured. They might aswell just add a "Image Forum" type to IP.B when creating forums, replace topics with image-only posts and can the IP.Gallery application.
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#7 Noni

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Posted 17 July 2012 - 05:43 AM

IPS you should really take this suggestion Cyrem mentioned above..

A major feature of an image gallery is that users can organise their photos how they want

#8 Heyhoe

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Posted 17 July 2012 - 05:46 AM

Noni,

I agree, both sites would work, i'm just saying i could cope without it. I do see it as a backward step though and hope IPS address this. This version of Gallery was supposed to be about putting the options removed and improving on the existing ones. Not removing something pretty fundamental to many communities.

Hope all turns out well for everybody.

#9 Noni

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Posted 17 July 2012 - 07:28 AM

I'm thinking that maybe an alternative to allowing subalbums is to be able to add some filters (like checkboxes in an online store) for albums with a lot of pictures.
These filters could be setup right at the step of creating an album. They should make the members understand that for each bunch of files uploaded they can attach some tags (automatically, for each bunch) which will become filters. (like checkboxes in an online store which filter out for example clothing - tshirts, shirts, pants..etc)

#10 ZakRhyno

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Posted 17 July 2012 - 07:45 AM

I would agree that haveing sub-alubms and keeping them would be a want for the community. I'm in for keeping them, thus allowing the Administrators to choose if they want them or not.

#11 ZakRhyno

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Posted 17 July 2012 - 07:48 AM

Noni,

I agree, both sites would work, i'm just saying i could cope without it. I do see it as a backward step though and hope IPS address this. This version of Gallery was supposed to be about putting the options removed and improving on the existing ones. Not removing something pretty fundamental to many communities.

Hope all turns out well for everybody.


But look what happen to IPG 3. Same thing just not on a mass scale like they did. They step back a lot in IPG4 and was going to fix things in the upgrade version which never came out and not it wipe totally and IPG5 is next. I think trying to build something that has options for the System Admins is something they should work for not let me it this way for everybody. Thus allowing IPG to make it likeable for all, because the user made it the way the want to.

#12 tenaki

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Posted 17 July 2012 - 07:51 AM

So are you saying that on my community website if we run a rally or similar type meeting we can no longer have an album called rally1 or similar where each member can add their own albums to, keeeping them all in one place?

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#13 PPlanet

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Posted 17 July 2012 - 08:19 AM

I think the idea of organising photos in albums and sub-albums is intituive enough and therefore everyone understands it. After all, even non-computer savvy people often have things organised in a similar way at home, and they are also used to forums and sub-forums. I dread the day when IPB, in order to minimise resource consumption, decides to do without sub-forums too. I think that reasons for having sub-forums and sub-albums are kind of similar. Just imagine a forum software that allows categories but no sub-forums. Imagine how different to IPB that would be and how we would struggle to get our heads around a navigation like that; particularly if you already have a developed community used to things in a certain way. Why would anyone think a gallery could get away with it? (Sorry, I hate complaining when I know developers are doing their best but the planned gallery changes worry me. I hope to be wrong though). Cheers.
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#14 Rimi

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Posted 17 July 2012 - 08:42 AM

So are you saying that on my community website if we run a rally or similar type meeting we can no longer have an album called rally1 or similar where each member can add their own albums to, keeeping them all in one place?

No, you'll still be able to do that. "Rally1" will be your category (which you will have to create in the ACP) and then members will be able to add albums into that category.

The only thing that is changing is that when a member makes an album, they will not have an option to put that album within another album. They will only be able to put that album within a category.

Anyway, I don't use member albums so this doesn't really affect me. But you'd think that after the backlash with IPG 4, IPS would realize that they should never, ever take away features. I'm sure though that IPS is just using ideas from Facebook again which doesn't use subalbums. And really if you use Facebook as your standard then you make IPG really easy to use for new users which is a main item of feedback regarding IPG.

Besides, all your problems can be solved by clever renaming of the album names..and lets not forget that tags allow for an additional form of classification/organization.

#15 bfarber

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Posted 17 July 2012 - 10:06 AM

Perhaps we did not explain clearly enough our reasons, however it is evident from the comments (and this topic) that the reasons this is happening are irrelevant.

Firstly, we are not removing subforums (however, we have worked on MANY sites where the admin has added over 1000 forums and suddenly they get memory and timeout issues because it takes so many resources to build the forum tree when they do this). The difference with Gallery is that you WILL eventually top 1000 albums if your Gallery continues to grow. This is because users create the containers, not the administrator, so mechanisms have to be built in to account for this.

Once you start reaching around 1000 albums or more when they can be structured in complex hierarchys, there is no resource efficient manner of building the tree. For instance

Category A
--Album 1
----Subalbum 1
------Sub-subbalbum 1
------Sub-subbalbum 2
----Subalbum 2
------Sub-subbalbum 1
--------Sub-sub-subalbum 1
----------Sub-sub-sub-subalbum 1

In this scenario, to show the latest images (that you have permission to see) for any parent container, you need to loop through your children containers (the ones you can see) to figure out what their latest images are. The only real way to do this is to load all of the albums from the database, put them into a tree structure in php, then loop through them. Pulling all of the albums when you only have 100 isn't an issue. Pulling all of them from the database when you have 10,000 is. And no, there's no realistic way to pull only the albums you need because you don't know which ones you need (you have to recursively iterate through the albums to figure out what each parent's is and to determine if it is one you need to check).

Basically, there are resource reasons that restrictions have to be implemented. A different approach (a node tree where database queries could be crafted to try to pull just the single "tree" we need) was attempted with Gallery 4, and the resounding feedback was that the approach taken was not received well (ignoring the technical issues encountered in the process). Over time we may find we can loose some restrictions, or we may discover new ways to accomplish something, however at this time the restrictions you are seeing are being done for a very specific and important reason, and not just because we want to remove useful functionality. :)
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#16 Rimi

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Posted 17 July 2012 - 10:10 AM

Well how about allowing albums within albums but not allowing albums within subalbums?

That made sense right?

#17 Heyhoe

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Posted 17 July 2012 - 10:36 AM

So are you saying that on my community website if we run a rally or similar type meeting we can no longer have an album called rally1 or similar where each member can add their own albums to, keeeping them all in one place?


You would have to have "Rally1" as a Category or Sub-Sategory.

#18 Noni

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Posted 17 July 2012 - 12:32 PM

Perhaps we did not explain clearly enough our reasons, however it is evident from the comments (and this topic) that the reasons this is happening are irrelevant.

Firstly, we are not removing subforums (however, we have worked on MANY sites where the admin has added over 1000 forums and suddenly they get memory and timeout issues because it takes so many resources to build the forum tree when they do this). The difference with Gallery is that you WILL eventually top 1000 albums if your Gallery continues to grow. This is because users create the containers, not the administrator, so mechanisms have to be built in to account for this.

Once you start reaching around 1000 albums or more when they can be structured in complex hierarchys, there is no resource efficient manner of building the tree. For instance

Category A
--Album 1
----Subalbum 1
------Sub-subbalbum 1
------Sub-subbalbum 2
----Subalbum 2
------Sub-subbalbum 1
--------Sub-sub-subalbum 1
----------Sub-sub-sub-subalbum 1

In this scenario, to show the latest images (that you have permission to see) for any parent container, you need to loop through your children containers (the ones you can see) to figure out what their latest images are. The only real way to do this is to load all of the albums from the database, put them into a tree structure in php, then loop through them. Pulling all of the albums when you only have 100 isn't an issue. Pulling all of them from the database when you have 10,000 is. And no, there's no realistic way to pull only the albums you need because you don't know which ones you need (you have to recursively iterate through the albums to figure out what each parent's is and to determine if it is one you need to check).

Basically, there are resource reasons that restrictions have to be implemented. A different approach (a node tree where database queries could be crafted to try to pull just the single "tree" we need) was attempted with Gallery 4, and the resounding feedback was that the approach taken was not received well (ignoring the technical issues encountered in the process). Over time we may find we can loose some restrictions, or we may discover new ways to accomplish something, however at this time the restrictions you are seeing are being done for a very specific and important reason, and not just because we want to remove useful functionality. :smile:


I don't have 1000 albums with or without subalbums, nor the majority of us i believe.. And for the handful of communities that do have, you should make a notice and let the admin choose what to do.
Though, if you are considering after all to remove subalbums, at least make from the existing subalbums some sort of filters for the parent albums. I mean, "tag" the images in them with the name of the subalbum, and put the filters on the left or right so users can easily sort through them.


In my case, merging subalbums into albums will make a complete chaos through the pictures. There are pictures that simply don't say anything or are not expressing what they should without them being placed in the current subalbums. So i need these filters or subalbums - one way or another. Tags are not sufficient. And tagging images one by one is painfully slow and irrelevant for me and the most of the members, though filters and mass applying them to pictures could help a lot.

#19 ZakRhyno

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Posted 17 July 2012 - 12:56 PM

I don't have 1000 albums with or without subalbums, nor the majority of us i believe.. And for the handful of communities that do have, you should make a notice and let the admin choose what to do.
Though, if you are considering after all to remove subalbums, at least make from the existing subalbums some sort of filters for the parent albums. I mean, "tag" the images in them with the name of the subalbum, and put the filters on the left or right so users can easily sort through them.


In my case, merging subalbums into albums will make a complete chaos through the pictures. There are pictures that simply don't say anything or are not expressing what they should without them being placed in the current subalbums. So i need these filters or subalbums - one way or another. Tags are not sufficient. And tagging images one by one is painfully slow and irrelevant for me and the most of the members, though filters and mass applying them to pictures could help a lot.


BUT, they have to build it for many communities not just yours. I think mass rule in this say.

#20 Marcher Technologies

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Posted 17 July 2012 - 01:00 PM

I don't have 1000 albums with or without subalbums, nor the majority of us i believe.. And for the handful of communities that do have, you should make a notice and let the admin choose what to do.
Though, if you are considering after all to remove subalbums, at least make from the existing subalbums some sort of filters for the parent albums. I mean, "tag" the images in them with the name of the subalbum, and put the filters on the left or right so users can easily sort through them.


In my case, merging subalbums into albums will make a complete chaos through the pictures. There are pictures that simply don't say anything or are not expressing what they should without them being placed in the current subalbums. So i need these filters or subalbums - one way or another. Tags are not sufficient. And tagging images one by one is painfully slow and irrelevant for me and the most of the members, though filters and mass applying them to pictures could help a lot.

By your very stated structure, you will, if are not reaching that point already.
say each user is allowed only 10 albums, at 100 users(if all use them all) you have 1000, now let's be realistic, 400 users, all make an average of 4 albums, that is 1600 albums... the very nature of user-submitted containers promotes an excess of complexity when allowed to sub, because of the quantity.




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